Influence without indoctrination (Parenting Beyond Belief #4)
PBBChannel asked:
The fourth in a series on nonreligious parenting. Hosted by Dale McGowan, editor/co-author of “Parenting Beyond Belief” and “Raising Freethinkers.” (Next video: “What if my child becomes religious?”)
Arthur Taliaferro
December 9th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Kathrine Daoust
I’m sorry, but I’m afraid you’re only deluding yourself and again misreading me. The exploring of different points of view is fine, it’s the parental acceptance of ANY point of view the child chooses that is the problem. This is allowing the child to create his own “truth.” (ie. truth is relative) This isn’t a tautology. It does promote relativism. Again, it’s not the exploration of ideas that is the problem, but the belief that the validity of an idea is dependent on the individual not truth.
December 11th, 2009 at 3:01 am
Eskridge
My strong feeling is that you and Dale are actually in agreement, and we’re going round in circles over a misreading of his position. I’ve been following his line of thought for two years now and can tell you for certain that he does not think all conclusions are equally valid. At the same time, he thinks self-discovery is the firmest foundation for sorting the good from the bad and prefers to build those sorting skills rather than guide kids by the nose. That’s all.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Lydia Esposito
I really do understand where you are coming from, 5c, because as I said, I once heard this the same way. But I eventually realized that statements like “Encouraging kids to explore multiple points of view is itself a single point of view, and therefore self-contradictory” is a tautology and a word game, nothing more.
I’m done, bye bye!
December 13th, 2009 at 6:19 am
Charlene Dancy
Critical thinking is a skill that is taught. One cannot teach it by witholding judgement on the thought process and analysis. This is not indoctrination. One cannot teach critical thinking without exploring different views. Dale himself says indoctrination is the teaching of only one point of view.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Jack Lydon
My, people are touchy about this. Both responders assume I’m advocating the “forcing” of parental opinions. I have not said that. Allowing kids to “think for themselves” should not, however, mean that we must accept their conclusions as valid. Dale clearly implies the opposite. By telling kids “make up your own mind,” (which is an axiom, since they will anyway) he implies that whatever conclusion they come to is acceptable. (Relative thinking)
December 15th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Chad Serrano
@5c: So unless he forces his opinions on them, he’s a relativist? (I get it, I used to hear this the same way.)
Giving kids permission to think for themselves is NOT the same as saying “all ideas are valid.” It’s a question of trusting them to think for themselves.
I recommend his other videos (and blog, and books) to you for a fuller picture. Dale is critical of many ideas and practices, but also determined that the influence he has on his kids doesn’t cross over into indoctrination.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Raymond Weatherby
And speaking of careless, I never mentioned or implied that “Mom & dad do it for you.”
The validity issue is key. His emphasis is on each person choosing his own truth — this makes truth relative. Hence, my point earlier.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Grammer
OK, let’s see. Careless listening? Quite the contrary. The implication is quite clear just before and after the 8 minute mark. His example is that his belief may be such & such, but so&so believes something else. Check out all the ideas, make up your mind, change your mind a hundred times– The very directive that he gives in these examples is that all ideas have equal merit, and it’s OK to choose any idea you like. He never mentions that any idea could be invalid (as you do).
December 17th, 2009 at 12:32 am
Hugh Pistone
I’m sorry, but that’s careless listening, 5curiously. He never said any such thing, and I challenge you to name the exact time in the video when you think he did.
He teaches his kids to think well, then trusts them to sort out the valid from the invalid for themselves. Are you really saying that the only way to distinguish between valid and invalid is to have mom and dad do it for you?
December 19th, 2009 at 5:31 am
Kenneth Mccleary
Put more simply, he insists that the ONLY valid view is that all views are valid.
December 21st, 2009 at 4:03 am
Charles Fordham
(continued) You see, in insisting that all views are equally valid, he contradicts himself by denying the idea that the belief in absolutes is itself valid. He tries to be freethinking but such a view is in itself self-contradictory.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:34 am
Sue Conn
There’s a major flaw in this presentation. He correctly states that indoctrination is only presenting one point of view to the exclusion of others. However, he himself is indoctrinating into the belief that all views are equally valid. In trying to be “freethinking” he is discarding the idea of absolute truth and only allowing for the idea that truth is relative to each individual.
December 24th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Bobby Wylie
i dont think i’ll be having kids for another few years but, this topic was something i had thought about and wasnt too determined on how i was going to handle it. im so glad i came across your video because it made me feel more confident about some of my ideas and also introduced some other good points to think about. thanks!
December 24th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Daley
Yes, it would be GREAT if parents and relatives would influence without indoctrinating! However, it will NEVER happen as a general rule! My father-in-law is TERRIBLE in that area-he constantly is indoctrinating both of my boys who are now teens! : (
December 28th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Timothy Riggs
Congratulations on establishing a YouTube channel for your videos. I very much appreciated the one on influencing vs. indoctrination. This has been a difficult point to overcome with parents and I think you handled it very adroitly. Many parents, even religious parents, are sincere about not indoctrinating their children but don’t see how to navigate this issue.
December 28th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Larry Heim
Great, as always. Just got “Raising Freethinkers” from my Gwinnett library. There were two copies! Faced out! I couldn’t believe it. I went back the next day and the other one was checked out as well. You could have knocked me over with a feather.
December 30th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Vivian Allgood
Thanks Dale! As always, your answers and videos seem to be right on target with what we as a family are going through. Right now, all the backyard vacation bible clubs in our neighborhood is the topic. I have been given the “bad mommy” award for not letting my daughter attend. But that is over quickly after she does get to join her friends for snack! Excellent information!
January 1st, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Kevin Destefano
Thanks for re-posting. I get similar questions all the time. It’s the most important nonreligious parenting issue on which I don’t say much, both because I have no experience with it myself & because sooo many variables come into play.
In talking to other nonreligious parents about this, it seems to me the best advice is similar to the mixed marriage (upcoming vid): If the split is amicable, sit down w/ex-spouse & negotiate a point-by-point agreement. (Out of chars, more later!)
January 4th, 2010 at 1:32 am
Patrick Lapierre
Nauseatingly politically correct.
January 5th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
Darcy Flamm
Hi Dale – that was me! Don’t worry, I’ve often hit the wrong button too.
I think I was just asking whether you plan to cover broken families, and in particular, “remote parenting”. This affects me personally, as I’m a “remote” father to my son, who after a divorce thankfully has a happy family life with moderately religious parents, and I’m not religious, so I have to be very aware of certain issues, if you see what I mean.
Thanks!
January 7th, 2010 at 9:46 am
Monica Blume
Thanks Dale! Great stuff!
January 9th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Esther Deen
Excellent as always Dale…
January 10th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Agnes Rinehart
Aack! Someone asked a great question about broken families, and I meant to hit REPLY but hit REMOVE instead! I’m sorry, please resubmit that.
January 12th, 2010 at 1:24 am
Fred Belisle
Yes — and this develops naturally over time through low-key follow-up questions. When a child says (to cite a recent example), “Michael Jackson’s ghost appeared in his house!”, simply follow up with, “Oh, why do you think that?” Don’t overcorrect. Let them be wrong along the way. The thirst for right answers rather than preferred ones develops over time if the atmosphere of inquiry is there. By posing the “why” question each time, you show that the reasons for believing are worth examining.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:04 am
John Mccrory
Dale, do you agree that as well as teaching children to make up their own minds, we should be teaching them that evidence is the best basis on which to form those opinions?